Caravan Pilots and Mechanics

PLEASE NOTE: You are currently viewing the OLD FORUMS which are working in archived mode. See our NEW FORUMS at this link!

Caravan Pilots

Caravan Pilots from around the World
It is currently Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:32 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:47 am
Posts: 5
The Cessna POH says to feather the prop in case of engine failure immediately after take-off. Given the option to either follow the checklist or leave the prop forward, which would be the best action to make a successful emergancy landing on the remaining runway? Also, the checklist says to select flaps full. Would prop fwd and full flaps create too much drag to maintain the necessary energy to flare from 85 kts, or would that be remedied by using flaps 20?

What actions do you generally brief before take-off for an engine failure and what actions do you TAKE?
Does anyone use an "airborne" decision point during take-off?

When do you switch from "immediately after take-off" to "during flight" engine failure checklist?

Thnx!


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:13 am
Posts: 56
Location: Niagara Falls Area
Van Damme wrote:
When do you switch from "immediately after take-off" to "during flight" engine failure checklist?


That would have to do with the time to the flare

Immediate flaring is one thing (still above a runway). Would say even at 20-30 seconds to touchdown has no time except angle down to the safe glidespeed, ... then only to grasp at checklist essentials in the time left to achieve safest location.

If a few minutes, like the dual engine birdstrike in New York, succeeded with basic instinct to get nosedown and keep speed while smoothly judging the best option for touchdown location. (I believe no flap changes were made there)

So yes, I would say ... the deciding factor for those things is touchdown location and timing.


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:25 am
Posts: 18
Location: Central Texas, U.S.A.
Me? There are always "IFs", but if I had just rotated, I'm going for full flaps and flat prop. I want to be as slow as possible. More altitude may present a different set up.

If you did not have time to try (or it did not help) the red alternate power knob, or time to do all things and crash is imminent, try your best to turn off your overhead fuels, pull your fuel cutoff and firewall knobs, master off, crack your door, and HOLD ON TIGHT!

_________________
Texas Caravan Pilot


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 3:49 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Central Asia
Our Before Take Off Briefing...(We always fly Dual Pilot)

1. If we have any emergency on the takeoff roll prior to Vr we going to stop the aircraft on the runway, and apply max reverse and braking. If we are going to go off the runway while stopping, we are going shut off the engine, fuel, and battery.

2. If we have an engine failure after takeoff, with runway still available, we are going to land. If we are below 1000ft AGL we are going to initiate the immediate action steps, and land (Straight Ahead plus or minus 30 degrees, or a briefed open area). We will not turn back to the runway.

3. If we have an engine failure after takeoff above 1000ft AGL, we will initiate the immediate action steps and "Try" to turn the aircraft back to the runway, and land in the opposite direction.

4. Any light, or non-land as soon as possible "Emergency" which occurs during climbout, we will first climb to 1000ft AGL before we refer to the checklist and troubleshoot.

To me the Checklist is absolutely worthless if you have lost your engine, or you have some sort of engine malfunction. Nothing in there actually pertains to what you need to do the instant your engine hicups....here is why, and this is what I teach (I am a checklist kinda guy, but not when it comes to the following scenario)

Let's take the ENGINE FAILURE IN FLIGHT Emergency.
All of a sudden your engine starts to spool down like someone has just pulled the plug on it. At that moment you are thinking WTF? However, at that point in time you don’t really know what just happened to your engine, and you are not going to figure it out in a millisecond when you are in that time period of a few seconds where you realize you have an emergency, and where your brain starts to act . You could have a…

1. Catastrophic Engine Failure (This one you would know what happened)
2. Engine Failure for some unknown reason…..Flameout, Fuel Starvation(You would probably see that coming prior)
3. Or you have an FCU failure

My point being, that you MIGHT not know what just happened. So do you sit there and do nothing until finally figure out what happened?
I teach pilots immediate action steps (In a flow) which will cover all different scenarios which are in the checklist….

1. FBI –Fuel Boost Ignition. (Takes two seconds and covers all Flame Out, and fuel related EPs. You might save the engine before 50% NG)
2. Pwr Lever – Idle (Needed for FCU EP, and Restart EP)
3. Prop – Feather (Reference NG first to make sure your NG is ZERO, If NG is stable at 48% or greater, you have an FCU failure, and don’t want to feather the prop. Fly the aircraft and go to the FCU failure EP). NG Zero, you feather the prop even though it feathered itself when it failed.
4. Fly the Aircraft and trim for 95-85kts (600-700FPM with the prop feathered)
5. Look for a place to land and head that way.

If I don’t have a catastrophic failure, DO I HAVE ENOUGH ALT TO ATTEMPT A RE-START? YES. (Now one could refer to the checklist’s 26 Items for this AIRSTART, or just have memorized what I call the RULE of 3’’s for Re-Start.

6. 1. Cabin Heat Mixing air - OFF 2. Bleed Air OFF 3. Aircon OFF
7. 1. Fuel Condition Lever Cut Off 2. Prop Feather 3. Power Lever to Idle
8. 1. Standby Power Off 2. Ignition Norm 3. Start Switch to Start
9. Advance the Condition Lever when you have enough NG. Now if it starts back up, great, you fly to the nearest place to land. If does not start you just right to the next set of 3’s or “The Safety Checks”.

10. 1. Fuel Selectors OFF 2. Fuel Condition Lever 3. Fuel Shutoff OFF 3a. Fuel Boost Off
11. 1. Turn On your ELT 2. Squawk 7700 3. Transmit Mayday
12. 1. Alert Passengers 2. Fasten Seat Belts 3. Open the door, and put the handle back down (It won’t be able to shut.
13. 1. Flaps as desired 2. Battery off after full flaps 3. 85kts

So in having these steps committed to memory (Cause you won’t have time to grab a checklist, especially if you are single pilot, or you don’t have that much altitude to attempt your re-start) you will have covered the following EP’s.

1. Engine Failure in Flight
2. Engine Flame Out During Flight (Above and below 50%)
3. Recognizing an FCU Failure
4. Air Start Starter Assist (The windmilling start is not even worth thinking about)
5. Forced Landing

If you have steps 10 - 13 memorized, they are always the default for….
1. Engine Failure at Low Altitude (No time for a restart, you are going down and need to secure the cockpit)
2. Engine Fire in Flight (After you have determined that you have actually have an Engine Fire, and need to proceed with a forced landing ASAP)

IMHO this is real world save your life stuff. If you have plenty of time, sure you can whip out the checklist to back it up, or have someone read them off. However, if you instinctively know what to do (and have practiced it many times), you will be covered for that time when you don’t have anytime. The bold faced items in the checklist are good by themselves when the exact problem is known, however a pilot needs to be able read more into the solution at hand.

BTW, we brief a min of 1000ft for attempting to return to the same runway. That is giving a bit of a fudge factor for pilot response time, pilot skill/ability, and winds. I have practiced losing an engine on climb out a lot in training using 1000ft as a hard deck, and start point. I personally (Under the right ideal conditions) could probably pull it off, or squeak by at about 700ft AGL. The thing to remember is that at the same time you yank it around for the 180, you need to be throwing down 10 degrees of flaps be able to turn tight, and not stall the aircraft. One must be extremely vigilant to divide ones attention between the Airspeed Indicator, and the intended point of landing. If done properly, you will have enough time to do those steps 10 - 13 I talked about earlier.


Last edited by pgt066 on Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:30 am, edited 4 times in total

 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:25 am
Posts: 18
Location: Central Texas, U.S.A.
pg066, AMEN!

_________________
Texas Caravan Pilot


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:47 am
Posts: 5
Thanks for your reply pgt066.

pgt066 wrote:
2. If we have an engine failure after takeoff, with runway still available, we are going to land.

Cessna wants us to feather the prop in this case according to the "engine failure immediate after takeoff" checklist. Is this the best thing to do to succeed with a successful landing back on to the remaining runway ? Off course we must adhere to Cessna procedures because they built and flight tested this aircraft in numerous scenarios and knows best… or?
What is your opinion?

The “immediate after TO checklist” btw should be used all the way up to cruise level according to Cessna…

What would an air crash investigator say if they found out that the Cessna EMRG procedures was not followed strictly by the operator?

The “memory” items are indeed very few in the emrg checklists.


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 3:49 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Central Asia
You can do what you want with the prop lever. It is going to go into feather regardless. Why would one not want the prop to go into feather if that is your only engine?

In regards to Accident Investigators. If I lived after an engine failure on take off, and survived. Who really cares what they think. That is just me.


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:25 am
Posts: 18
Location: Central Texas, U.S.A.
pgt066, Your writing is a carbon copy of our training, and yes most of it is in my memory banks too. I just hope my brain works under the stress meter at max.

However, you said the prop was going into feather regardless of the prop lever. Ours does not feather during shutdown unless we have pulled the lever prior to. Am I missing something?

_________________
Texas Caravan Pilot


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 3:49 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Central Asia
I have done emergency shut downs (On the ground) on new engines which were unfortunately out of rig, and don't recall the prop not being in feather with the prop lever out of feather... while the engine was shutdown. However, looking back, maybe I was just too concerned about other things at the time.

I definately don't want to put out any bad info, and it is good to discuss. That is how we learn and clear up these misconceptions.

Looking now at the P&W "Know your PT6" handout, it says "Auto Feathering is not used in single engine Applications". So common sense would dictate, that if it did it automatically, you would not need Auto Feather. So that basically clears up my misconception. Apologies.


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:47 am
Posts: 5
Just to clearify my question again.
If there is runway left below you when you get an engine failure would not a feathered prop according to the emrg checklist increase the landing distance (distance covered to get back on the ground plus stopping distance on the ground) compared to leaving the prop forward in a disc (higher drag) condition?
Is it not the best option to have this extra drag to be able to stop before the runway end?


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:25 am
Posts: 18
Location: Central Texas, U.S.A.
You bet I will leave the prop flat to slow the bird down if power is lost during rotation and/or little altitude.

Just a side note. A few years ago during my initial training in the Caravan at 2000' above an airport, we slowed the bird down to minimum airspeed (with the stall warning honking) for me to learn the feel of the plane. Then we feathered the prop. It seemed we jumped out of our seats! It was amazing the drag that was relieved. It made it very obvious our plane has a great glide in feather.

We also practiced with the alternate power and this was a good thing. We landed and took off with it. I know many air companies will not allow this in fear of possibly making a mistake and over torque/heat the engine, but we are a private operation and I wanted to know as much about the plane as possible, beyond what the sims have shown. We were light and kept the engine well below max power. Many of my takeoffs are off a 1500' strip, and I try to be ready to use the red knob. I hope and pray it never happens.

This helped build self confidence in me and our plane, and better knowledge how it will react. Hope this helps you.

_________________
Texas Caravan Pilot


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:49 pm
Posts: 9
The prop will always feather when it loses oil pressure after shutdown; it'll go into feather faster if you manually feather it.

If I'm trying to land on the existing runway after an engine failure shortly after takeoff, I want all the drag I can get.

If I'm trying to stretch my glide, then I want it feathered.

It'll be feathered pretty soon in any case. I've shut them down without feathering a few times and they ALWAYS feather during and after shutdown.


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 3:49 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Central Asia
Sitting around the office today with 3 of our PT6 mechs we talked about this, and hashed it over. This is the best explanation we could come up with, and anyone can add to it, please do so.

If you do nothing when you lose your engine, the prop will go to feather regardless. As Feeder pilot has stated. If your prop is in min or greater the oil will eventually work its way through the pilot valve which controls the oil going to the prop which has the counter weights and spring working against it. If you put the prop to Feather, that sets the pilot valve in a position which allows the maximum amount of oil to exit the prop.

To answer the question about whether to put the prop to feather after losing your engine on take off. I would opt to land with it in feather because I think the aircraft would be a lot more difficult to control, and land not feathered. I practice power off (Prop Feathered) glides all the time, and the rate of descent with the prop feathered is about 600-700 FPM. With the prop left in min I get descent rates of around 1500 FPM. So you add low altitude, and a heavy aircraft to the mix, and you are coming down like a rock. Not to mention the fact that you could be reducing your airborne (Option Time) up to half. I have practiced losing the engine at 85-95 KTs on a climb with 20 degree flaps, and you have to be EXTREMELY quick to get the nose un-natrually down in order to preserve your airspeed, and establish a glide. That is NOT a good situation.

Ironically enough, I just got an email this morning that one of our C-208B's down in Colombia lost it's engine at 12,000 feet, with an accompanied ENG FIRE Inflight light. The initial report says that they did not have any abnormal engine indications or symptoms prior to a HUGE BANG NOISE, followed by an ENGINE FIRE light, and the associated low oil, low fuel. They glided 8 miles to the nearest airport, and everyone is ok, minus some burnt brakes, a frozen engine, and stuck prop.

All I can say is. Have those forced landing steps memorized.


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:25 am
Posts: 18
Location: Central Texas, U.S.A.
On the ground it does not go to feather on its own. Next time you shut your engine down, don't feather it and it will spin for a couple of minutes and be somewhat flat. But maybe in flight with adequate airspeed pressure it may feather. I don't know and I am not trying it!

But I think we all agree, if we need glide space feather the prop.

_________________
Texas Caravan Pilot


 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Failure Procedure
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:47 am
Posts: 5
As we have it today in our company we have an airborne decision point or altitude, normally based on visual clues and judgment. This decision altitude vill depend on runway lenght, wind, climb performance and so on. If we have an engine failure prior to this decision point we will try to land back on the remaining runway and leave the prop flat to increase the drag and shorten the glide and stop distance.
After this decision point there is not enough runway left to land back on and we will feather the prop to increase glide time instead.

Now Cessna tells us to feather the prop att ALL times when having an airborne engine failur, even if very close to the runway...

Is it ok to bend the Cessna emrg procedures slightly like we do or not??


 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2002, 2006 phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.043s | 15 Queries | GZIP : Off ]